MOVING FORWARD: THE GROWTH OF WOMEN ENTREPRENEURS IN SCIENCE, ENGINEERING AND TECHNOLOGY

Martina Hornickova: I do believe it can change because when you think about it, how it has changed over the past decade, the views have changed completely. When you think about how, I don't know, 30 years ago or 40 years ago, before my time, it was really 'honey! I'm home!' and the woman basically just cooking, washing, cleaning and making dinner, being ready there for her husband when he comes home from work and women were basically just taking care of the household, they didn't have jobs because those years it was only the husband who was taking care of the family and had to provide for the family so the burden was only on the husband, and it was very stressful for them as well because if they couldn't provide it was basically very destructive for them. Whereas where we are today, we have moved a very long way ahead from that so I believe in 20 years it can move even much, much further. And yeah, in a dream world it could be very equal but it would never happen exactly that way because unfortunately, still naturally it's only women who can give birth (laughs) and go through that and when you think about some women unfortunately go through pregnancy having problems so it's nine months some women cannot really work and cannot do anything for nine months, and then after that. So some women, giving a child to a guy, it takes a year being off work or being able to work at all. So unfortunately that aspect is going to be there always, until something magic happens and guys would be able to give birth (laughs).

Cobi Smith: Hello and welcome to the SETwomen podcast, I'm Cobi Smith, and that was Martina Hornickova, who runs a software business, talking about how women's roles in society have changed, and how this affects work practices. Here's Jenn Monahan, who runs an energy consumption consultancy.

Jenn Monahan: Well we've had the legislation that's supposed to have given us equality and it kind of has, to certain levels, I mean if you're an educated, middle class, white female then you stand obviously a much better chance of more, higher income, higher earning, higher standing, higher status and so on and so forth. But if you don't have that then I'm not so sure that the rules are being adhered to. But as to whether women should adapt, yeah, but we shouldn't be the only ones adapting. Maybe the workplace needs to adapt, and I think we have seen that happen. I mean, the sheer amount of numbers of women that do go to work and expect to have, you know, a decent job let alone a career. I think employers have had to adapt and the workplace has certainly become more, they seem to have better structures in place to be able to cope with the fact that women do stop their lives at several points in their twenties and thirties and now forties to have families. And to some degree men are benefiting from those kinds of things now as well because you know it's quite acceptable for a guy to take time off because his wife has had a baby, you know, although it is only two weeks (laughs).

Suzy Lynch: Well I think flexible working applies to men as well, doesn't it? So, you know strictly according to the letter of the law it does, and it's really a question of men beginning to test it as well, the people who do want to work flexibly. Because it's not just pregnant mums it's, you know, carers, some people care for elderly parents and that can be shared equally between the man and the woman and the family. So I think there are instances that people begin to start applying it – and the same with their parental leave, that applies to both sexes so, you can't get away from the fact that actually if you're having a baby the woman has a larger part to play in it, but all of the other things that come through I think they can be equal between both sexes.

Certainly some of my friends are beginning to think about sharing the responsibility, both parents working four days a week for instance, and then the children are in nursery three days a week, and I know two or three families that operate like that. Or the husband, you know, takes three afternoons off to collect the children and various other bits and pieces. So people are beginning to think along that lines, and I think the more that that happens and that they can find a way to work within their business solutions I think the easier it will get for everybody else. But I have a suspicion that the engineers are going to be at the back of the queue (laughs)

Cobi Smith: That was manufacturing engineer Suzy Lynch, sharing the common view amongst women in science, engineering and technology, that flexible working and parental leave need to apply equally to men if we want real equality.

Kate Mingay: There is a lot more sort of shared responsibility for child care. And if you talk to a lot of men, you know they would love to be able to, an awful lot of men would love to have more time and be more, contribute more to the upbringing of their children. You know there are still men around who are chauvinistic about it, it's like 'no, that's women's work and this is man's work, me caveman, you, you know wench, off you go' (laughs), and you're never ever going to change that because that's just the nature of people and the world would be a dreadful place if we were all the same. And then you'll have other families where the chap's quite happy to stay at home and the wife will go to work. I know at least two families where that happens because that suits them, and the wife was the bigger wage earner and is happy to have been the one to go back to work and the partner, husband, is the one that's happy to stay at home, you know. So there are compromises to be reached, but I think it's, personally I think it's going to be almost impossible to change because from an employer's point of view, to legislate for trying to give, to legislate for being told to give flexible time for this, that and the other and everything else, it is going to be really hard.

Cobi Smith: And that was Kate Mingay, who runs a chemical supply company, saying that although flexible working and fairer parenting leave would bring greater equality, it's a pretty hard thing to introduce for everyone. Annabel Sedgwick, who runs a science communications agency, agrees.

Annabel Sedgwick: I think that the government is just trying to push one thing on one hand, and then it's kind of taking away with the other, because it's 'yeah, we want all these women in all these high management positions', actually do women really want that? The ones that do will get there anyway, the ones that don't will not, and they can't be pushed into doing something they don't want to do, and the men who are choosing those women I think they need a bit of help realising that actually creating these flexible working patterns is a really good thing, and it's not just a good thing for women, as well it's a good thing for the men, the men shouldn't be missing out on all this great sort of family stuff. But then you look at the values and you look at paternity, you know, and I know paternity leave's increased a bit but it's, it's pretty crap to be honest, I mean it really isn't very good and so I think it's difficult to achieve a balance. I think that there are always going to be government initiatives that really conflict with each other when you look at them in any kind of depth, aren't there?

Cobi Smith: So if we want greater equality, it seems the government, and companies, need to change work practices.

Kath McGuire: This might have been easy to guess given that I have multiple, different jobs but I'm not really a nine to five, five days a week, one company forever kind of gal. So I like to be able to do different things, and I want to be able to take time off any of my jobs for whatever reason, whether it's because I want to go on a cycling holiday in Luxembourg or whether it's just because I want to stay at home and do nothing for a while. So I think it's incredible important that people do have work life balance, I think that's absolutely essential for men and for women. There is definitely an issue with the fact that women are the ones who give birth. No matter how equal men and women are, women are the people with the uterus who do the actual giving birth process. As far as the raising of children is concerned, I think that's something that in an ideal world, should be done by both parents, or as many other interested parties as they are, whether it's family and friends who are involved in the process too. I think people being able to take time off to spend time with their families is important, and I agree that work should be being restructured so that people can take that time off without damaging their career prospects. But I think that also goes for men. I think men should be able to take time off in the early years to spend time with their children as well. One of my friends was saying that her husband is working and she's about to have their second child. And they calculated that he's going to be around for, mainly for Saturdays and Sundays, for weekends, and so there's what, a hundred of those in a year so you know, he's only going to see his child, or spend quality time with his child, for about a thousand days in the child's first ten years, and that's a bit scary. And I think that's a very scary thing that men should be addressing as well, so that both men and women should be able to take time off from work to be able to spend time with their families. I think that's important. I also think it's important that men and women who don't have families are also allowed time off for whatever it is that's important to them in their lives so that the best sorts of people are doing the jobs, and then if you can give them time off so that they can do whatever it is they want to do they will come back reinvigorated, they'll be more committed to the job that they're doing, you'll get better work out of them anyway. It does make economic sense if you can look to the mid-term rather than looking at the short term.

Cobi Smith: Entrepreneurial mathematician Kath McGuire there, with some suggestions that might sound pretty scary to some employers. A lot of the women I interviewed started businesses because even though they were highly intelligent and qualified, typical work practices just didn't suit them. For these women, enterprise was the solution. But are there other, more basic things that the government could do to help, if society wants women to work, as well as have children?

Elena Punskaya: Childcare (laughs). I don't necessarily think it should be free but I think it should be easily available. And I had enormous problems when we'd just arrived here, I had enormous problems just trying to find anything at all apart from child minding. And I have to say that I went to St John's College and they were extremely helpful because they actually paid half of the price of any childcare which was extra, extra helpful. But it's that availability to find someone that you know that your children are safe there, in a safe environment. And that still, I think, is a big question and a problem.

Berenice Mann: Whatever happens, a proportion of your income is going to go out on childcare. Whichever way I looked at it, working and continuing at the university, that was what was going to happen. And I just though at the end of the day, what would be equally good would be if I worked from home for myself, I earnt less money, but actually I wasn't spending most of it on childcare. For people who don't know, when you have a child and you put them in any sort of childcare and pay for it, it comes out of your salary, your already taxed salary, it comes out of net income so whatever you're taking home you then have to pay out and it becomes very expensive basically. So I basically was able to say, well look, I could just earn half as much but not pay as much childcare, and that would be how I would roll on. So in those ways, I was thinking about, you know, trying to earn an equivalent amount of money that I was taking home basically.

Cobi Smith: Software engineer Elena Punskaya, followed by physicist-turned market researcher Berenice Mann there, talking about childcare – the issue that unites all working mothers in science, engineering and technology. Even when parents share caring responsibilities childcare's still a problem, as CEO of Novacta Biosystems, Fiona Marston, explains.

Fiona Marston: I was very fortunate because we role reversed so my husband looked after our first child and gave up his job. And that was very satisfactory for both of us because we loved her dearly and it is very hard to with your first child to, from very early on, to accept that a stranger might look after them. And I think for many people, I understand it's their family that look after their children. Beyond that we were very fortunate because we found a nanny who was brilliant. And it was just pure luck and she stayed with us for over seven years. So that made my life easier, but that is a big issue because you know, how do you manage, how do you balance that? How do you fund it? You know when I first had a nanny you paid a nanny, a live out, 50 pounds a week when salaries were probably, for the scientific level that I was on, in the sort of 15 to 20 thousand range. Now what are salaries, maybe they're in the 30 to 35, but I think you're paying nannies more like 500 pounds a week so you know, I think now it's a really big problem because the cost of childcare is just out of proportion to what people are earning.

Jeanette Milbourn: If you use a registered nursery you are allowed to claim the tax back. If you use a nanny in your home you are not. I could not use a registered nursery, they would not have taken my children on medical grounds. And therefore I feel penalised.

Cobi Smith: Did that have implications for how much work you were able to do?

Jeanette Milbourn: Well, it made an implication on what was left for me after I'd been paid by my clients. At one stage I was paying two thirds of my paid work to a nanny, which left me with very little for myself, but that little bit kept my family afloat, and it kept my career going. I do know women who've paid for childcare and effectively not gained anything financially, but done it in order to maintain their career.

Cobi Smith: That was regulatory affairs consultant Jeanette Milbourn. It may not be sexy, but tax on childcare is one of the tangible issues mothers working in science, engineering and technology want the government to address. Are you starting to feel that any discussion on women working in these industries is going to lead to baby talk? Don't worry. Our next three episodes are going to focus on working in science, engineering and technology respectively. This has been the SETwomen podcast, funded by the East of England Development Agency and YTKO. I'm Cobi Smith, thanks for listening.

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